The Group: Utah County’s covert secular community
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Once a month, at an undisclosed location in Utah County, a group of students predominantly from BYU gather to talk about agnosticism, secular humanism and other religious ideologies not accepted by the mainstream group on campus.
It operates anonymously—known to its members simply as The Group—because a “disaffiliation” from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will result in an Honor Code violation if discovered by the university.
Andrew Johnson, a junior in biotechnology at Utah Valley University, founded The Group in October 2010 as a safe place for secular humanists, agnostics and freethinkers in Utah County. Johnson started the group after returning from a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Indiana, disenchanted with the faith.
“I ended up finishing my mission, but I tried to teach as little as possible and instead do service whenever possible,” Johnson said. “When I returned home, I felt like I was the only non-theist within Utah County as there were no gatherings of people like me.”
The Group’s first meeting at a Starbucks in Provo garnered just six attendees, but its roster soon exploded with like-minded students—both from BYU and UVU—who were searching for a community that would understand their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
Johnson said The Group serves as a discussion forum, a place for finding like-minded friends, a dating pool and a place to talk about issues such as death, religious family members and relationships.
“I really just didn’t want to be alone in what I was doing,” Johnson said.
An anonymous BYU student came forward to discuss her involvement with The Group. Although The Daily Utah Chronicle does not usually publish anonymous sources, the student’s name is withheld because she could face serious disciplinary action from BYU—including removal from the university.
BYU students cannot be open on campus about their disbelief in Mormonism if they were admitted to BYU with an ecclesiastical endorsement from an LDS bishop. All students, regardless of faith, must have an ecclesiastical endorsement from a leader of their faith. If a non-LDS student wished to change his or her ecclesiastical endorsement from, for instance, a Catholic priest to a Jewish rabbi, the student could easily change this through BYU’s Admissions Office.
However, if an LDS student wanted to change his or her ecclesiastical endorsement from LDS to another religion, the switch would be handled through the Honor Code Office and would most likely result in removal from the university, said the anonymous student.
The Honor Code Office declined to comment.
“The risks are few, but significant,” Johnson said, adding that no one from The Group has been removed from the university.
The BYU student found The Group during some “rebellious Google searches late one night,” which led her to a blog written by one of the members of The Group, who encouraged his readers to contact him.
She soon became a full-time, active member of The Group, though completely in secret. Although she was raised LDS, she said she slowly became disillusioned with the faith, leading her to look for a different organization more in line with her views.
“I just kind of realized that it didn’t make sense. It just wasn’t logical,” she said. “There is so much going on in the world that you can’t just call pure good and pure evil.”
She also said the LDS Church’s stances on issues such as gender, race and homosexuality caused her to question her faith.
Because of pressure from her parents and her financial dependence on them, she hopes to remain a student at BYU. However, she spoke of The Group’s ability to connect her with those facing similar familial situations.
“The Group provides a wonderful opportunity to meet people who can know about the ex-Mormon side of you. Many group members have similar experiences leaving the church, telling their families about their disbelief and living in a community dominated by Mormon culture,” she said. “I’ve met some incredibly intelligent and kind people through The Group.”
There about 170 members on The Group’s page on Facebook, but the anonymous student estimates that there are about 200 members, 100 of which are BYU students.
Johnson, the founder, said the organization originally started out as a general Utah County group, but has spread particularly to BYU students, especially ex-Mormons.
Johnson said The Group does not intend to undermine the LDS faith, but rather to give students who no longer adhere to it a community and a support system and to promote tolerance of other faiths in Utah County.
“We hope to, in the future, make this area more tolerant to different beliefs and lifestyles and foster a general attitude and desire to understand and to be understood through civil discussion,” he said.
The anonymous student said most members of The Group follow the Honor Code in other areas—such as refraining from drinking alcohol, coffee or tea and abstaining from sexual relations before marriage.
Although she could face being removed from the university and being ostracized by her family, these are risks that the BYU student is willing to take.
“The Group allows you to be yourself for some part of your college years,” she said. “It’s a nice reassurance that simply because you no longer ascribe to the Mormon faith, or any other organized religion, you can still strive for knowledge, fulfillment and happiness.”
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I rckeon you are quite dead on with that.
Utah is great, I grew up in Pennsylvania and people for the most part get into drugs, sex, profanity, etc. I feel the church gives structure and teaches good morals. I also know if one were to pray sincerely if the Book of Mormon is true, you will receive peace that it is true and because of that, everything else is true, meaning living the teachings the gospel or the things the church teaches brings happiness and peace. God promotes love and peace, the devil promotes contention and arguing. I’ve personally seen miracles in my life and others lives that can’t be explained by logic and are from God. I hope if anybody reads this, I want you to know that just as man once thought the earth was flat, man may not be perfectly knowledgeable as many think they are or evidence shows in the 21st century. In the 10 centuries or 20 centuries from now man will continue to find things that we once thought was a law of science, is wrong and our thinking changes. God is solid and doesn’t change. I know we don’t just live on earth and once we die that is it… I know we didn’t come from apes, we came from God, and I know Satan exists and I know God exists. I hope people who lack faith can take the challenge of really reading the Book of Mormon with real intent and take it seriously and fast and pray, and I know they will get an answer as I did with the feeling of peace, which is of God.
I have 4 nieces, which sadly I have not had the pleasure of speaking to, since I announced to my family over 2 years ago, that I was no longer a member of the Mormon church. Their father is obsessed with BYU football, and converted to the church in southern California in the mid-80s after falling in love with BYU’s 1984 national championship team. His entire life is centered around the activities of Cougar football (but has never played football himself).
He has stated to his daughters repeatedly, that they are welcome to attend any college they want. But if they want him to pay for it, they will only attend BYU. The oldest of the girls is now 16, and by now should be considering her post high school education. Certainly she will apply to BYU, and quite possibly will be accepted. But I wonder what will happen to any of them if they make it into their third or fourth year, and decide that they no longer believe what their parents and church have been telling them their whole lives. Will they try to hide their doubts, and stick it out till graduation, knowing that their only means of financial support is through their father, who demands a BYU education only? Or will they attempt to be honest with everyone, and face expulsion from school, denial of all their academic credits, and being shunned from her own family (and possibly many of her friends) the same way I was shunned by my own family?
Fortunately for me, I was into my 30s, and well into my career by the time I realized the deception of the Mormon church. But my heart aches for those who are coming into adulthood, who have no idea how deeply they’ve been indoctrinated into absurdity, who will soon make the same discoveries for themselves.
Believe what you want, that’s fine. However, if you decide to give up on God and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, don’t expect a private institution, which is founded by said church to change their standards. That’s highly illogical thinking. (I’m not willing to live by BYU’s expectations, so I am not a BYU student.)
If anyone is interested in more information regarding The Group, SHAAFT, Atheists of Utah Valley, or another secular organization feel free to contact me at andrew.juanhijo@gmail.com. I cannot promise I will answer all questions as there are some sensitive topics but I will do my best for those who are legitimately interested in getting connected and/or helping out. Thanks
Andrew Johnson
President, SHAAFT and from “The Group”
I would have sworn this was a Christwire.org post if I had not linked directly from the Deseret News.
You ppl are serious? Wow. I would suggest many of you stay in Utah once you graduate, you aren’t ready for America.
Speaking as a non-mormon, non-resident of Utah, and non-attendee of BYU, I have to say this entire comment thread strikes me as completely ludicrous. Is Utah really like this? Seriously? Do people really have conversations like these? Why in the world would any sane person put up with this kind of nonsense?
Honor code office? Oaths? Discrimination against non-believers? This whole place just sound awful, just awful.
You folks realize, we live in the 21st century, right?
Yes, it’s really like that in Utah. This coming from a guy who was lucky enough to escape. The problem is, when you’re in the church/cult, you don’t realize how crazy it is… you just think that this is normal. And that’s why they put up with it…
Speak for yourself.
Just wait until you have a president in Washington who not only understands this sort of stuff but is in total support of it, whose thinking is completely dominated by it; and hold on tight when he starts making important decisions about you and your life based on this insanity (Mormonism) that you find so mystifying.
To each his own. Don’t judge an entire state, religion, or group based on a private institution.
I have every right to judge this cult. They are damaging to their own people, they follow a doctrine that’s obviously false, and I was lucky to get away.
Jesus Christ would expel a student who changed her religious affiliation. Just like he spat in the adulteresses’ face after she confessed her unfaithfulness, am I right? He also doesn’t support helping people who adhere to a different set of beliefs, which is why that story about the Good Samaritan ended so badly. He’d also insult and label the weaker man (or woman, in this case), even though he too was criticized for his beliefs. He definitely would not try to understand the hardships someone faces when their world is turned upside down and they’re stuck on the wrong side of the cliff. Yeah, this anonymous BYU student does not have Christ’s sympathy, not at all. Burn baby, burn.
Where is this Facebook page? These sound like my kind of people!
When I read of BYU students doing “rebellious google searches” I wonder if the university has taken to monitoring web traffic for such material and possibly finding out who is searching for it. I wouldn’t put it past them to do this–if not now, eventually.
I am a member of this group and current BYU student. Here’s my story.
I grew up righteously. I had perfect attendance at seminary for several years(6am seminary, a 50 minute drive where I grew up; picking up kids along the way); I brought non-member kids WITH me to seminary. I gave out books of Mormon in high school. I kept my friends from drinking on the night of graduation by letting them shave my head. I served an honorable mission; I trained 4 missionaries (2 at once) and baptized dozens in a mission that had Europe-like statistics. I was perfectly obedient. I dozens of pages of notes as I studied the scripture.
When I came home, I applied to one and only one school. BYU. I knew nothing about it as an academic institution. My next mission in life was to get sealed in the temple and BYU was my best bet to fulfill my duty. The honor code I signed at the time was the most natural thing for me– I was so happy to go to a place where, for the first time in my life, others shared my same standards.
How was my testimony? I thought it was great. I had spiritual experiences on my mission but never felt like I had prayers answered or was guided. I admired those to whom revelation came so easily and wished that God would answer my prayers as He had theirs.
After a great personal struggle at BYU, I confided in my bishop about receiving answers to prayers that I felt never happened. Together we established that I was worthy and indeed doing everything I should have been to get answers. He finally said maybe it was my ADHD that kept me from hearing God (PS, I was tested and found normal– at the BYU Accessibility Center). I believed it though, clinging to perhaps at least ONE final explanation for God’s silence. I shortly after realized he was grasping for straws.
Still, I thought maybe I was smart enough that God didn’t need to answer me– you know, that God was giving me some autonomy. At least this was a pleasant shift in thought from the normal self-deprecating rationale I maintained in order to keep my belief in God. But this thinking didn’t last long either. Maybe God was just putting me through a struggle so that he could save me later and so that I could be an instrument for helping someone else going through the same thing. This was during my sophomore year. I knew I had a choice, but I literally stayed at BYU because I thought that here, more than anywhere else, I would be nursed back to spiritual health. I didn’t want to make any rash decisions– given the weighty nature of my eternal salvation.
Eventually I realized that I was the one grasping for straws. The most terrifying thing I ever realized was that I might not believe it anymore. I had planted the gospel seed (Alma 32), and it didn’t grow. So I thought I’d try a different brand: What if the church wasn’t true?
I had declared it was false, I only entertained the idea as a way of being honest with myself. Immediately the cards came tumbling down. I could see contradictory doctrines in a new light. I could suddenly understand how evolution WAS possible without pre-fall doctrines (2 Nephi). As an executive secretary, I watched before my eyes as my bishopric receive contradictory revelation (and understood why) about who should be called to a certain calling (before reporting their choice, they all made it clear they had received “a clear answer”). I finally didn’t have to choose between evolution and pre-fall doctrines on death/birth (2 Nephi 2).
I spent a year and a half trying to force fit the truth of the church, but it needed only a few months before I was almost completely sure both the church and God himself weren’t true. That’s the power of critical thought. I think the motives of the members were good, but that they were simply too susceptible to the peripheral persuasion tactics used by the church (The very same ones we discussed in Psych 111 on how cults indoctrinate their members). At the time I thought the word cult was a very distasteful way of describing the church.
I hadn’t broken a single honor code rule… yet.
I first broke the honor code when I turned down an interview for some a stake calling during my transitional phase. The honor code says you must be an Active Member. I remember how I felt: If I were to accept the calling, it would be a lie to myself and everyone else. If I didn’t take the calling, I wouldn’t be the “active member ” the honor code called for.
I had a lot of momentum going for my undergraduate. I was president of several clubs, had published in academic journals, performed outstanding research for various professors from whom I would later ask for letters of recommendation. All of this was in preparation for grad school. It’s not just credits you lose if you withdraw… It’s academic & professional suicide. And whether it cost my “integrity” or not, I wasn’t about to commit it for a well-meaning, albeit misguided institution.
It’s not just academics either. BYU requires you live in BYU-approved housing as an undergraduate student. BYU also requires apartment complexes to house only students. It’s in the contract I signed to live here. Withdrawal would mean defaulting on my housing contract (or else lying about it). My job is also through BYU, and despite the “equal opportunity employment” posters in the break room, leaving the school meant forfeiting my job.
I was happy to pay non-LDS tuition and continue to attend BYU as a non-member following the “shall not” rules, but alas, the honor code states students can’t “voluntarily disaffiliate” with the church (i.e. have records removed) and remain in attendance. To this day I’m still boggled as to why this policy exists and fail even further to see how it’s anything but the institutional criminalization of thought-crime. (It must be because it’s impossible to leave the church without leaving it alone and they don’t want us preaching evolution in class.)
Before I found the group via Google, I was depressed. I was alone on an island. Despite always thinking it beneath me, I called the BYU’s counseling center to set up a meeting with a therapist. I asked for a non LDS counselor, just to find someone to talk to tell me I wasn’t crazy. Someone whose position would ensure my confidentiality. (Note: I couldn’t even talk to my bishop because I was paranoid he wouldn’t understand and send me to the honor code office. I knew the ex-Mormon stereotype; why should he think I was any different?).
…
I didn’t know what to expect my first time with The Group. I had heard about bitter Ex-Mormons before. I thought I was going to feel the same pressure I felt in the church. When I first introduced myself as “I’m investigating,” the response was a jovial “Oh, don’t worry, we’ll de-convert you.” Still apprehensive, I retorted with my newfound independence “I’m not the type that’s easily persuaded,” to which they smiled warmly and said “We know, otherwise you wouldn’t be here.”
For all the times I prayed in vain for the atonement to guide (or at least comfort) me, I finally found what I was looking for, but just not in the place I expected.
I’ve since expressed my “struggling testimony” to my bishop because I felt uncomfortable going to church just to show my face. He was surprisingly supportive and asked for me to bring by my ecclesiastical endorsement for him to sign. Because of his understanding, I’ll graduate next year. While BYU as an institution may have well documented policies on the ineligibility of disaffiliated members, I’m forever grateful to leaders like him who have a little more honor than the stuff BYU peddles.
Have you considered disassociating yourself from the Group until after you have graduated? That would seem to satisfy the honor code. At least from my perspective, you have a Bishop who recognizes your integrity and your struggles. Your confiding in him demonstrates those qualities, for which you are to be commended.
I was interested to read of the life of Mother Theresa. As a young girl she had a quite dramatic “spiritual experience” that changed the direction of her life into the one known to the world. But, according to her autobiography, she never again had any kind of a spiritual manifestation, though she pleaded for it in prayer. Nevertheless, her whole life was devoted to fulfilling that one experience. Good luck..
So I’ve tried looking for it online through a Google search but I’m not finding anything. What would be a good search term to use? I would love to join a group like this. Thank you.
Look for me on Facebook. The Group isn’t currently accepting new members for awhile but I can add you to it when we do. Also there is a public version of the group that operates through UVU by the name of SHAAFT. If you are interested I could add you to that page instead or in addition. Thanks for your interest.
Dan Barker, thank you for tellling your story. Can I suggest something radical? If you really don’t believe in the Mormon religion anymore (as I don’t either), make sure you go to a grad school that’s not BYU. Then, when you finish grad school, mention BYU as little as possible. Despite what they have led you to believe, BYU doesn’t have a reputation as being a serious school with critical thinkers. Unless you plan to live in the Mormon Corridor, having a degree from BYU carries about as much weight as a minor state college.
Good luck!
If you get the opportunity to explore your authentic identity, free from the pressures of cult group-think, I’d like to invite you to one of my favorite groups: lifeaftermormonism dot net. We have some very lively chats most weekend evenings, and especially Friday night. The website has only been in business for a couple of years but we already have nearly 2000 users.
I also find it interesting that your name is Dan Barker. Are you familiar with the more well known Dan Barker? He is the president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and author of a couple of books: “Godless” and “Losing Faith in Faith”. He’s a former evangelical preacher turned atheist. Dan wrote a blurb for my own book about leaving Mormonism, which even includes the reference you described–the house of cards collapsing. My book is called “House of Faith House of cards” and you can find it on Amazon or at Barnes & Noble.
I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.
For security’s sake, Dan Barker was just a pseudonym I used to post the above. I decided on it after having just finished reading Godless, and found that I really connected with his experience. It seemed appropriate. Though Anne Frank probably would’ve worked equally well
i would like to know how many babys are made at byu ether by boy friends or the teachers for good grades.thoose little morman girls will spread there legs for good grades
the lds church is a big fraud.they want your money and your time and 90% are to stupid to see the truth..and if all the things put on the inter net were not true the lds church lawyers would be sueing over it but the info comes from old lds books and jornels of early members who were there and living it
couldn’t agree with you more
Yes way to stupid…”to,” of course, spelled with only one “o.”
Please tell me: Is it ok to Lie? If yes, what are the implications of your answer? I ask this in respect to those who know they are violating the BYU honor code by their actions, or who would justify others in doing so. While I don’t know the exact percentage of tuition costs covered by LDS tithing funds, there is little question it is the greater share of that expense. Is it ok to covertly breach the contract with the Y but conceal that fact to continue to complete one’s education at the expense of tithepayers?
What does “moral” mean. Is it moral to misrepresent onesself to the other 26900 or so students on campus who received different spiritual messages from the same classes taken by the 100 or so mentioned in the article? Or does the degree justify the means?
Perhaps honest answers to these two questions might reduce the passionate vitriol that the article generated..
I am not, nor have I ever been affiliated with BYU. I hold an advanced degree, have taught at three universities, and held responsible government positions. I am an active, believing, Mormon.
Please tell me: is it moral for BYU to expell students and deny them their academic credits, for simply expressing that they have lost their faith in the church?
I could understand if BYU wanted to dismiss the students for not participating in the religion, but why deny them their credits that they obviously earned while attending?
Students Lie, BYU behaves unethically vindictive, what’s the difference?
IF BYU leadership were really called by God, and directed by inspiration, why doesn’t god just tell the leadership which students are liars, so they can be rooted out? Where’s the inspiration? Why is it that some students are able to fool God in order to get their degree at “The Lard’s University”?
I’ve seen quite a few people say, “BYU is a private institution, take responsibility for your actions.”
The issue with their disbelief rule is it can be broken without any action at all. I can choose not to drink or have sex or swear. I agree that I signed those rules. But I cannot choose how I feel or think about certain things. This is why the rule is unjust.
When I first had doubts about the LDS church, I immediately contacted my bishop. He suggested reading material and other actions I could take which were supposed to promote faith (fasting, praying, temple attendance). I did everything which was asked of me but the more I studied, the more incongruities I found. The more I prayed, the more frustrated I became with a lack of answer. The more I read my scriptures and did temple services, the more I realized the LDS are hardly the followers of Christ they claim to be. Therefore, through no fault of my own (and in fact with quite a bit of effort to gain faith) I was forced to face the conclusion that it was a lie.
The only actions I took were ones recommended to me by LDS church authorities. How can I be punished for thought?
Are you still at the school? Are all of your actions (not thoughts) compliant to the honor code?
If so, there would seem to be no basis for punishment. Has punishment been imposed?
If, on the other hand, you are DOING something that violates the honor code, then is it honest on your part to accept a reduced tuition at the expense of believing tithe payers, to complete your education.? Or are you suggesting that to remove this support is a punishment for some conduct on your part?
I know that the men who established and have administered the church have not been perfect men. I know mistakes have been made. I have lots of questions about LDS beliefs. But more than the questions, I have had experiences that validate my faith. The experiences more than trump the questions.
The problem with your statement, Former Non Mormon, is that you suggest that as long as one’s actions are compliant with the Honor Code, there is no basis for punishment. That is simply not the way BYU works. If the Group Member you are talking to were to go to the Admin office and say “I no longer believe in the church, but I am still willing to live by the Honor Code,” they would NOT be allowed to simply raise their tuition to non-member levels and continue attending. Rather, they would be referred to the Honor Code office, and likely kicked out of school. I speak as a BYU alumnus who received my undergraduate degree from BYU, but who cannot do graduate work at BYU because I have left the church. Non-mormons of almost any kind are welcomed at BYU, unless the non-mormon was once mormon. In that case, you are persona non grata, regardless of your willingness to live the honor code.
“I have had experiences that validate my faith. The experiences more than trump the questions.”
Really? You must be talking about the “feelings of the spirit”, right? And other related experiences, I’m sure. Well, you DO know that devout people of every religion feel the same exact feelings about their religion? So what good are your spiritual experiences if everybody feels the same thing?
The answer? Relying on feelings gets you no-where, it’s a very poor method of determing what is true… and you have fallen for it. The human mind is often fooled by emotions even when facts point to something different.
Rely on reason and logic, not feelings.
you are so right.i found out the truth after 60 years..there are more people learning the truth every day..the church wants to hide the true history..but just look at the money they have made of all the lyes
Look at all the money they have made from their lyes–Lye is valued for its use in food preparation, soap making, biodiesel production, and household uses, such as oven cleaner and drain opener. Bath & Body Works, Tide Laundry Detergent, all of these companies are just dumping money into the Mormons’ lyes!
Can i like this post? Because I definitely do!
These kids have to be very, very careful. Since at least the days of Ernest L. Wilkinson there has been a formal and covert system at BYU to find and track what BYU admin considers as “inappropriate” behavior and honor code “violations.” Why this snooping is part of the BYU “honor” code office is beyond me, since there is nothing honorable or ethical about what they do. But now that this article has been published, the “honor” code office agents will be on the trail, and if they catch these kids they will be expelled. And if they are expelled, past experience has shown that BYU will (quite dishonorably) even block the sending of your transcript record to other colleges and universities. I really hope these kids will find their ways out of BYU and into a more pleasant situation and into a college or university with more credible academics.
I hope that somehow, some day, that BYU and the “authorities” of the LDS church will see the error of their ways such that they quit throwing their many, many dissident and non-believing members under the bus. This seems unlikely, however, since they have to be right and they have to be in control. Theological correctness and moral superiority, such as they see it, are the only paths they can thus far pursue, as they have laid out no other path or made any other plans. This is already beginning to bite them in the collective butt, but their reaction so far has been to crack down even more. After being raised in the LDS church, going on a mission, being married in the temple, becoming a high priest and holding the usual church positions, and even sending kids on missions, I could no longer tolerate the increasing dishonesty and foolishness of the LDS church president and his group of boys. I wish the church good luck (in a perverse sort of way) as they circle their wagons ever tighter to protect their precious obfuscations, prevarications, and revisions. God bless the Internet!
I feel really bad for these kids in The Group. I graduated from high school right after I turned 17. My mom was very controlling. She was insistant that I could only attend BYU for college. I wasn’t allowed to apply anywhere else. Even though I told her I had no interest in going to BYU. I felt like I had absolutely no choices. I followed all the rules there, but I really hated the whole Big Brother attitude. I felt like they expected everyone had absolutely no self control or good sense and would run around “sinning” if Big Brother didn’t keep a really tight watch and rein on them. I found it extremely insulting.
I have 3 cousins who are all pretty devout LDS. They have only been willing to help their kids with college if the kids attend BYU. If the kids want to go to school somewhere else they are completely 100% on their own. The family won’t contribute a penny. If the kids agree to attend BYU, they get everything paid the 1st year, and for years 2-4, they have to get a job to help pay their own living expenses, but the school portion is paid in full by their family. The kids weren’t/aren’t allowed to have jobs in high school because their parents don’t want them feeling “too independent.” Which comes across to me as “we want them to do exactly as we say and don’t want them having the confidence to make their own choices, in case those choices end up being different than what we want them to be.” So what is a kid stuck in that situation to do, seriously? It’s a lose-lose situation all the way around.
Unfortunately, my cousins are not some weird extreme minority. I’ve known way too many parents over the years who’ve been the exact same way. BYU is a private school, it can make whatever rules it wants. I do think a lot of the rules are over the top and downright stupid, but they still have the right to have those rules if they want. I feel badly for the kids that come from the crazy over controlling families like my cousins’. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Well, after reading the first 1/2 of the comments on the page, I’m inclined to side with the non LDS posters. Grinunbarrett, Christopher Hansen, and BN are either trolls, good or bad, I cant really tell, but they seem to follow the pattern of having close minds and having an unlogical way of thinking, like many LDS that I have met.
Yeah, BN and Christopher Hansen have been pretty consistently stupid throughout this thread. I’m sure they’ve enjoyed attacking a series of straw men and making a series of blatantly false statements (see: “atheism is a religion and Karl Marx is the prophet,” one of the more idiotic statements I’ve read in a while,) but, unfortunately, they look dumber with each post.
I imagine they think they’re “telling it like it is” or something of that sort, but instead they’re just revealing their own thoughtlessness and lack of empathy.
I graduated high school at 17. My parents tried to force me to go to BYU. There is no way at 17-18, was I in a position to sign over the next 4 years of my life and “promise” that my beliefs wouldn’t change. Now, after a mission, several callings, hours of temple service..etc. I FINALLY find out the church has been dishonest about basically EVERYTHING.
For you BYU students..keep your head down until you get your degree…the church is vindictive… Be proud you saw through the Crap so early in life.
Sadly, BYU and the LDS church have become the Big Brother of Orwell’s 1984. I just hope that the Winston Smiths and Julias of BYU aren’t joining the Brotherhood, to have their intellectual freedom removed.
If BYU was a real university with genuine academic freedom, the Group wouldn’t need to exist.
All these cries for honesty from a religion who’s own recent prophet, when questioned on national television about whether he believed/taught the famous Mormon saying: “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become” stated “I don’t know that we teach that”! Of course he was just following the example of honesty of the founding Mormon prophet Joseph Smith and his relationship with 14 year old girls.
I would say that these folks are a part of the movement to infiltrate a private university in order to undermine their religious freedom which is mandated by the US Constitution. I don’t understand why anyone would who takes the position they do desire to be a member of a university community that they are in total disagreement with concerning the rules of the institution other that a motive they do not desire anyone to know they have.
One would expect that out of a religion the atheists that can’t seem to be honest with themselves. If they are dishonest with themselves they very definitely will be dishonest with their family and everyone they come in contact with. Is that what is wrong with the United States today? One would almost believe those in public office especially in DC are members of the religion of Atheism. If you desire to believe what you say you do why hide your actions or belief?
Life isn’t fair! Are you not aware of this? S*$@ happens! Sometimes you just have to deal with it.
You’re probably one of those people who think they should stop keeping score in kids sports because it’s not fair that someone has to lose. Good grief!
What are you even talking about? Do you imagine that you’re saying something relevant? Do you imagine you’re providing some insight into the “true character” of the disaffected? Because, as a believing non-Mormon Christian who has had several friends lose their belief (and who faced the disdain of family and friends as a result), I can assure you that your analysis of the “cowardly” nature of those who find themselves struggling with their faith is a crock of shit.
All your posts are doing is revealing your utter inability to understand what’s going on.
As for the “life isn’t fair” thing – yes, it’s quite clear that you want to pretend that you somehow understand the facts of life better than these atheists and other disaffected types. Unfortunately, the lack of empathy and inability to comprehend basic facts – accompanied with the sheer mindless emotionalism – displayed in your posts suggests a rather distant relationship with “real life” and “reality.”
To put it another way, the atheists and other disaffected here are far more aware of the way things “really” are” than you are, and yet you have the audacity to lecture them about “the way things are.” That’s pretty funny, and also ridiculous.
On a final note, your second paragraph is idiotic, and essentially amounts to: “I bet this one group of people is just like this other, different group. Why do I believe that, in spite of the fact that neither group exhibits the characteristics of the other? Because I have disdain for both groups.”
Good grief!
Well said
Hmm. A shill for the LDS church, per adventure? You’re leaving out the part about the many LDS parents who withhold support from their kids if they don’t attend an LDS college. Hey, come to think of it, I was one of those parents. This is life in the LDS church: If a person no longer believes and tries to leave, he or she attracts all kinds of negative attention from those who remain in the cult. It divides families. Parents abandon their kids, siblings abandon their brothers and sisters. It’s all so very un-Christian. If Mormons want to be recognized as Christians, they had better start acting like Christians. Geez, like that’ll be the day.
Atheists are undermining your religious freedom because they’re not letting you undermine their religious freedom! Onoes! D:
They need to learn that you Mormons and other believers are the only kind of person that’s allowed to exist! And that it’s their fault they couldn’t believe anymore, which is why it’s okay to kick them out of BYU after they paid thousands of dollars into it for tuition.
Atheists just need to be honest with themselves and admit that it’s right to get screwed over in the name of the Mormon god! (Who loves screwing people, especially his millions of plural wives.)
Why is this “unnamed” source saying that although she could be removed from BYU and ostracized by her family for being in The Group these are risks she’s willing to take? Obviously, she’s NOT willing to take the risk. Try being honest with your family and live what you believe (or don’t). Quit taking their money to be at a school you don’t want to be at and quit taking up space when someone else would be grateful for the chance. Coward.
Using the word “coward” while simultaneously using only three letters for your name is what, exactly?
Is “coward” your sign off signature?
John B.
Do none of you Atheist and Atheist supporters believe in honesty. Atheist that are attending the Y are doing so when they know the rules and are violating the rules of a PRIVATE institution. None of them have a gun to their heads forcing them to go to BYU. Not one of them will be arrested if they stop going to this PRIVATE institution. The First Amendment to the US Constitution allows for people to assemble. That means that people also have the Constitutionally guaranteed right to NOT ASSEMBLE just like freedom of religion means that you have the freedom to be atheists or agnostics. BYU need not assemble with Atheists or fornicators or practicing homosexuals, or people with beards or people that wear torn Jeans or people that worship idols or cheer for the Ewets, just like you atheists have the ABSOLUTE right to keep me out of your group because I think atheist are morons that try to FORCE their religion (and Atheism is most definitely a religion) on people that don’t believe your garbage false faith cult.
Communism (Communists are Atheists by the way) does not allow for people to leave. BYU encourages you to leave if you don’t like their rules. BIG DIFFERENCE!
I would not send my DOG to BYU. I am LDS but would NEVER want to be around that many people that gave a standing ovation to Fascist Dick Chenney, the War Criminal; or believe that Mitt Romney is anything but a Socialist and would actually vote for him. Puke!
If you don’t like the Rules at BYU then go to Berkley or Cambridge or Utah State or degrade yourself to the point that you would go supports the Ewets at the University of Utah. BYU does not want you and they have the RIGHT, Constitutionally guaranteed, to kick you out of their PRIVATE ASSEMBLY!
Why not form an Atheist private University? Oh I know why. Because you atheist have to steal money from others by taxation to make anything you touch survive because you cannot do it with your own money like BYU does.
Much like those who vilify gay soldiers, you pretend that 18 year olds know exactly who they are when they sign up. College is a voyage of learning and exploration. If a university punishes people for discovering what they do and do not believe, then it is an institution of indoctrination and not of learning.
Way to twist that around. This has everything to do with accountability. These 18 year olds have every right to change their minds. They also know before they attend that if they don’t follow the rules set by a religious PRIVATE university, they can no longer attend. It’s very simple people. When you sign a contract, you must uphold your end of the bargain. Why is this so hard to understand?
It’s not difficult to understand. Because I honestly don’t know, can you please tell me whether or not this “contract” also says that you must not ever allow yourself to learn the truth of something which may run counter to current religious teachings?
Put another way, if the LDS church taught, as part of their doctrine, that the Earth was flat, would students not be allowed to discover otherwise? What if they “accidentally” found out that what the church was teaching is false, in effect pointing to the fact that the church lied to them first? At what point is that contract then considered void, and by whom?
You get a lot of resecpt from me for writing these helpful articles.
Yeah, that’s the tckiet, sir or ma’am
Shoot, who would have touhhgt that it was that easy?
you mad bro?
Shiver me timbers, them’s some great informtaoin.
Superb information here, ol’e chap; keep briunng the midnight oil.
Christopher,
Thank you for your comments and allowing us to see a different point of view. I understand where you are coming from but also know how these students feel and the pressures they are going through. Instead of reading the article and wondering why students would feel that they couldn’t leave you simply attack them with the same rhetoric the church does. These students are not stealing from the LDS church. It in actuality is the other way around. Many, if not all, of the members who attend BYU entered the institution as fully active, fully believing members never intending to leave. They have spent countless hours cleaning buildings, doing church service projects, working at the temple, working at welfare centers, fulfilling callings, attending meetings, going on missions for 2 years at a personal cost of $10,000, and have paid tithing their entire lives. What is the value of these hours? I would low ball it at about $75,000 in labor and actual monies. So, “the church” gets to exploit them, ask them to pay tuition to a school they actually fund, force them to take non-related courses in mormon theology, and when these students finally see behind the curtain and realize they have been taken, “the church” gets to kick them out of the school the student actually paid to build. That, good sir, is truly dishonorable. BYU having an honor code with a policy such as this only goes to show how shallow, spiteful, and hypocritical “the church”, its leadership, and its members really can be. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and ALLOW ALL MEN THE SAME PRIVILEGE, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Guess that one wasn’t cited when making the honor code. Really, what would jesus do?
If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color. It, by definition, is a lack of whatever you define as religion. “A” is a greek prefix meaning “without” and “theist” means god. Religion’s have rituals and codes of conduct shared by those within it. Atheists practice no rituals or follow any codes of conduct except for their own conscience based morality. There is no dogma or reverenced objects. Atheists follow evidence to a conclusion and when the evidence changes, so does the conclusion. Atheists are objective while religion is subjective. They are completely incomparable and incompatible.
You are wrong again in your statement that communists are atheists. Communism is an economic and political system with no actual connection to an atheists lack of belief in god, none. Also, to demonize communism and exalt “the church” in the same breath is almost laughable. “The church” has attempted communal living many times on many different scales (law of consecration) and is preparing for the greatest of all communist adventures, “the united order.” If you dislike communism so much, you’d better follow your convictions, be honest…blah blah blah, and get yourself out of a church you fundamentally don’t agree with.
I am not perfect, you are not perfect, and neither are the students who are atheist at BYU. They are just taking in information about their situation and responding the best they can. It would also help however, if a church which claims certain beliefs and doctrine would actually follow it and truly attempt to achieve their goal of being more christ like. Would jesus kick someone out?
Where is the “Report Abuse” button on this website? Your comments (all the ones I’ve read on this article) are full of nothing but venom, hatred, contempt, and outright bigotry toward those who think differently than yourself.
Well thanks for setting the example for the rest of us of how a TRUE follower of Jesus behaves. I’ll remember that next time the missionaries show up at my door. And I’ll treat them exactly the same way you are treating others on this site.
Is this a joke? “Outright bigotry toward those who think differently than yourself” Get a clue! And quit threatening us with how you’re going to treat the missionaries. A TRUE follower of Christ would never stoop to such levels. You know you can move to a different state right? You obviously have beef with the church. Take your hate elsewhere!
Way to be a neighbor! If somebody has a different belief than you, then they should be the one to leave. And you have the audacity to harp on about all the “persecution” you received because our Mormon ancestors kept telling everyone how god intended their neighbor’s land to be theirs. Oh and the whole business about having sex with 14 year olds and other people’s wives.
So in other words, what you are saying is you DON’T believe what Jesus said about loving your naeighbor as yourself. If your neighbor doesn’t agree with you, you want to make them leave. Or perhaps you’d prefer that life was like 1857. When a group of people come through your state who aren’t part of your religion, you would feel justified in calling out your local militia to slaughter the whole lot of them. I can see the Mountain Meadows mindset is still alive and well in Utah.
You’ve got to be kididng meit’s so transparently clear now!
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Christopher Hansen, I cannot tell if you’re just a troll or if this is what you really believe, so I’ll respond to you as if it is the latter – since even if it wasn’t what you really believed someone who reads this probably does agree with what you said.
There are so many problems with your statements I don’t know where to begin.
Firstly: Honesty is not always the best policy, especially when it leads you to poverty, starvation, getting ostracized by society at large, etc. There are just some things you lie about. When attending an institution like BYU – as an atheist or agnostic or other religious person that isn’t LDS – with the pressure from family to go to this university, e.g. they force you to attend BYU or kick you out of the house/family, that is one of those things, especially since you could just be “unsure”. Is it selfish? Yes. But it’s also selfish for a family and society to put you into that situation.
Atheism is like Anarchism – it is the opposite of religion. Hard to believe that, but that’s how it works. Anarchism is a way to govern a society without a government. Atheism is a way to point your moral compass (and life) without religion. Do some people turn it into a religion? Sure. But there’s also fundamental religious types who go and blow up buildings. Don’t generalize a group by a minority – it’s a bad practice and dishonest (which is against the honor code isn’t it?).
Do some atheists try to force their “religion” on people like you say? Sure. I can believe that. I can also believe that every day hundreds of mormons go door to door to force THEIR religion on people (most of which don’t want it if you’ve heard the stories about doors in the face). So stop acting high-and-mighty.
Communists aren’t always atheist and simply saying this is a discredit to your entire argument here. Communists in Russia are probably more Russian Orthodox (Christian) than atheist, in the middle east they’re probably more Muslim than atheist (I’m sure there’s a few communists down there). In America, almost all communists will be some form of christianity.
It all relies on what religion the society that you’re born into has. On top of all this: The society originally formed in Utah under Brigham Young was Communist. So to use Communism as a valid argument is disingenuous since even Mormonism was a large supporter of Communism back in the day.
The paragraph starting with “I would not send my DOG to BYU” is just nonsense and will be ignored. It’s a lot of loaded words and a bunch of crap.
In the end, some people have no choice other than to attend BYU and lie about their religion. And as long as you don’t notice it, who cares? Are they hurting your institution’s feelings? Doubtful. Are they forcing their beliefs on you? Again – doubtful as it would get them kicked out. Let sleeping dogs lay and leave them alone.
Also, University of Utah (the DREADFUL institution) ranks higher than BYU in Engineering, Start-up companies, Medicinal degrees, and in general is ranked in the top 100 in the world whereas BYU (or YBU in this case) is not even ranked in the top 300.
Dear Christopher Hansen:
You say that “. . . Atheism is most definitely a religion.” Well, guess what? If Atheism is most definitely a religion, then infertility is most definitely parenthood.
See how that works?
christapher hansen you sound like you live in cenerfield utah and went to church when rex brown was the bishop there.your moma is queen at city hall screwing every body out of there money
christapher hansen you got to be from sanpete county ceterfield utah your one of those little morman boys who had rex brown the polygamust bishop teaching you..does rex have any more wieves now he had 7 wives when i lived there
What a lame article. BYU is a private institution with its own set of standards. Tithing subsidizes about 70% of students’ tuition. Students receive this subsidy and are admitted contingent upon obeying the honor code. They also should realize that if they decide not to follow the honor code, then they will have to suffer the consequences. It’s very simple. If that doesn’t fly, then don’t go to BYU.
Take responsibility for your actions people.
@BN – The reason why these students attend BYU is because when they were 18, and still living with parents, they were still deep in Mormon indoctrination, and didn’t even know there was another way to think about life. That’s one thing that becoming an adult, attending college, and living on your own can do for a person–it helps people discover who they really are, and what they want to do with their lives. I suspect that probably 99% of “The Group” were active Mormons, who wholeheartedly believed in the faith when they enrolled at BYU. But over the course of a year or 4 years, they came to the conclusion that their prior beliefs were a fraud.
If these students come out as unbelievers IMMEDIATELY, BYU will IMMEDIATELY expel them from the school. Not only that, but I personally know students who have had their CREDITS REVOKED by BYU. These kids spent 4 years at the institution, put all the long hours into studying, and passing classes, only to be told that their entire educational experience was no longer valid. BYU refused to allow them to transfer their credits to another university. The church is very vindictive about folks who leave it. They don’t simply live and let live. They do everything they can to damage the lives of those who leave the faith.
And that is why these students must remain in the closet, FOR NOW. After graduation, once they’ve received their degree, then they may be as open as they desire to be.
@Eric Davis Sorry buddy, I don’t buy it. I hear the conspiracy theories against the church all the time and I’ve never found any of them true. “The church is very vindictive about folks who leave it” Why do I only hear crap like this in the state of Utah? Because its chalk full of bigots full of hate towards the church.
I loved my time at BYU and NEVER heard any of the crap you’re claiming. Please stop defaming the church with lies. My experience here at the University of Utah can’t end fast enough. I’m growing very tired of the anti-LDS sentiment felt here. Apparently when were asked to be tolerant, that excludes the LDS church.
Also, I realize these 18 year olds really did believe at one point, but they still must be responsible for their own actions. It was their choice to attend, sign the honor code, and it was their choice to leave the church. Life isn’t fair sometimes.
I didn’t know about “any of the crap” being claimed when I was a believer either. Once you get out of that mindset, you realize the world is different than you might have thought it was. Perhaps you don’t realize how much the church is in every. single. conversation. It’s uncomfortable, especially when you know that if you voice your own genuine opinion and if its not in agreement, you will receive shocked looks or angry rebuttals, as if your opinion was a genuine threat to their cause and to their lives. I challenge you (as i’ve heard said in church) to try it as an experiment yourself, just to see if “any of the crap [we're] claiming” is true or not. Offer up a strong contradictory statement to LDS doctrine in a discussion. Convince someone (perhaps a random LDS person on campus) that you used to be devout but that you no longer believe, and see how that affects how they act toward you, or if no matter the beliefs that you state, that you can see if they seem look down on you and further try to convince you of THEIR truth. It’s not a comfortable experience. Only at that point can you say, based off of your personal knowledge, that what you’re saying is true or correct, as you have personally experienced it.
Dear BN:
You state, “’The church is very vindictive about folks who leave it’ Why do I only hear crap like this in the state of Utah?” That’s because BYU, the school that vindictively refuses to allow credits to transfer, is located in Utah.
You also say, “I loved my time at BYU and NEVER heard any of the crap you’re claiming.” Well, the reason you haven’t heard any of it is because you never lost your faith in Mormonism. If you had become an Atheist, then you wouldn’t've just heard of it, you would’ve experienced it firsthand.
This really isn’t rocket science, BN.
You wrote that, “it was their choice to leave the church.” Do you think it would be more “honorable” of them to still attend a church they believed was a lie?
“I hear the conspiracy theories against the church all the time and I’ve never found any of them true.”
“Conspiracy theories?” You don’t know what that phrase means, do you?
And by “I’ve never found any of them true” you mean that you haven’t bothered to look into them, but just know that they can’t be true. But yes, there are lots of inaccurate things, good and bad, said about the LDS Church – that doesn’t, however, mean that everything said about the Church that falls outside of your own experience is inaccurate.
“Because its chalk full of bigots full of hate towards the church.”
That’s cute. I know, I know – you’re one of those Mormons who’s desperate to see persecution and hate everywhere you look. You think that persecution validates your beliefs, or something of that sort.
The problem being that, to a rational person – one who can actually comprehend words and facts – Eric’s comment wasn’t hateful.
Or maybe I should put it this way: If your standard for “hateful” comments is so low that Eric’s comment would qualify, I’d hate to see what your atheist twin would think of, say, your own comments, or Mr. Hansen’s comments (pretending, of course, that you were a different person who could actually, for even half a second, view things outside of your own very limited perspective.)
It is kind of hilarious – and further indication of your own illogical thought process, and lack of experience in the real world – that you think that, because you never experienced those things during your time at BYU, they must be untrue. Of course, by their very nature, BYU’s policies towards the disaffected aren’t exactly going to be announced to every student. However, those who have experienced the process of disaffiliation firsthand, know for a fact that what Eric describes is true. The “vindictive” thing is subjective, but I can guarantee you that Eric’s description of the process of those who announce their disaffection while at BYU is entirely accurate. The fact that you don’t want to believe that it’s true doesn’t change that fact.
I know, I know – you’re one of those Mormons who’s troubled by facts – but basically, all you’ve said is “I don’t like what you’re saying therefore it can’t be true.” Of course, such an attitude makes it even more funny that you are trying to tell other people “the way things are,” that “life isn’t fair,” etc., since you yourself clearly have trouble accepting reality and have such incredibly limited experience in the real world (so limited that you think facts are “hateful” and “bigoted.”)
As for the “lies” thing – the only thing in Eric’s post that could be a lie is the first part of the second paragraph describing BYU’s process for those who “fall away.” (The first paragraph is rather irrefutably true, and universal to human nature – many people only experience doubt about their upbringing during their college years.) The last few sentences of the second paragraph, and the last paragraph, are subjective.
So let’s analyze his claims about BYU’s process for those who announce themselves as no longer LDS:
“If these students come out as unbelievers IMMEDIATELY, BYU will IMMEDIATELY expel them from the school.”
This is true, and confirmed by BYU’s own stated policy. So, to absolutely prove that you’re an ignoramus (not that there was any doubt), I present to you some excerpts from the BYU Honor Code, from the official BYU site:
“Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU.”
“Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing.”
Therefore, my dear unenlightened friend, the first part of Eric’s claim is rather irrefutably true, the best evidence being BYU’S OWN STATED POLICY. Those who are disaffiliated can no longer attend BYU. So that leaves us with:
“Not only that, but I personally know students who have had their CREDITS REVOKED by BYU. These kids spent 4 years at the institution, put all the long hours into studying, and passing classes, only to be told that their entire educational experience was no longer valid. BYU refused to allow them to transfer their credits to another university.”
The second part is confirmed by the experience of multiple people – if you’re not in Good standing, they don’t allow you to receive a transcript, and thus you can’t transfer your credits. Thus, their entire educational experience is invalidated, because they can no longer attend BYU and all the credits they earned cannot be transferred to another university.
That is confirmed – your own lack of experience is not the same as my experience, and the experience of those I have known.
Therefore, my dear unenlightened friend, if you had any sort of integrity whatsoever you would now apologize for calling Eric a liar.
@BN
You say “I hear the conspiracy theories against the church all the time and I’ve never found any of them true”. Which “conspiracy theories” have you heard? That Joseph Smith was a con man? That he sent married men on missions and married their wives while they were away? That he married TWO 14 year old girls? That he wasn’t persecuted for founding the church, but because he was a con artist, theif, and pedophile? That the church was actively involved in a political campaign to infringe upon the rights of tax-paying American citizens (PROP 8)?
Let me ask you this: Have you done ANY independent research on any of these? If so, has any of that research been from sources NOT affiliated with (and paid by) the LDS church?
“Please stop defaming the church with lies.”
1. They’re not trying to defame the church, The Group is purely a support group for like-minded people who’ve shifted their beliefs away from the cult.
2. These aren’t lies. They’re truths.
Shoot, so that’s that one suppeoss.
I wish with all my heart there had been something like this when I attended BYU a few years ago. I was another student who believed in and followed the rules but had serious doubts about church theology and practices. It was the only school my parents would help me attend, and so due to my circumstances I was stuck, BYU or no college.
It gets better, in all kinds of ways! Keep asking questions, keep refusing to let others pressure you into only fitting within tiny ridged parameters, don’t just “turn it off”. Perhaps someday the church will realize that by creating such a tiny box of acceptable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors it is pushing away the best and brightest.
So you had a choice but you didn’t like it. You did not have the guts to stand by your convictions and needed others to pay your way. PLEASE go an be an Atheist and join with their prophet, Karl Marx so that you can take money form others so you can do what you want to do.
All you Atheists are a like. You sell your convictions for money from others.
How ironic to accuse atheists of doing exactly what religions have done since the dawn of history.
Good thing the LDS Church has no interest in making money…
you mad?
Atheism is only a non-belief in one or more deities. Nothing else. There are no political philosophies, agenda’s, plans for world domination or anything like that.
@AxelDC I completely agree with you.
Ever hear of the United Order? Karl Marx is your prophet, too.
It’s one thing to dictate someone’s behaviors, but it’s another all together to dictate their thoughts. Being kicked out for thinking seems counter to the purposes of a university degree. If BYU resorts to thought belief, then it’s become just like the Communists Ezra Taft Benson used to rail against.
I’m so proud of all the members of this group. Keep your heads down and don’t make waves. My oldest daughter is a senior at the Y. I wish WISH I could get her to see through some things and potentially look for association with your group. I don’t think that is in the cards however.
I do wish you great continued success. I think the DAMU can provide assistance. I’m trying to think of ways to reach out to your organization to provide assistance and support. Though I live out of the area, I do visit there and would love to meet with you sometime when I’m there.
Good luck in what your goals are. I think this is great.
I have been a student of Communist China and the cultural revolution which took place there and throughout my course of study I have been struck by the similarities between the LDS church and authoritarian governments. The enforcement of groupthink is the most dangerous and dehumanizing commonality, in my opinion, and, unfortunately, seems to provide for the basis for most church experience now. My goodness, the leaders have just about instituted it as the only way to legitimately bear testimony. We are told what we should include in a testimony now – how ridiculous is that? And how boring?
My own crisis of faith, which had been building for a long time, took place while my son was trying to apply to BYU and was not given an ecclesiastical endorsement by the stake leader. This was a kid who was trying desperately to cling to the remnants of a testimony which had been shredded by bad experience after bad experience in a small branch with incompetent, odd and somewhat mean YM leaders. I was flabbergasted that instead of giving him a hand up when he was hanging on to the side of the cliff, the leader thought it better to stomp on his fingers and help him fall. I guess it was better to lose the one than risk infecting the 99 with his doubts and questions.
Since then I have often regretted that this incident caused me to lose what was left of my faith and tell my daughters of my loss of belief. It has been a struggle for our family since then and I can’t help but think how much easier it would have been to pack them off to happy Valley and keep pretending. But articles such as this convince me that, in this case, hard was better. Though I had a wonderful experience at BYU it was a different place then. It’s best that I keep those memories and allow my children to create their own. At least their minds are free to do so in the context of their own belief system.
It’s okay, you can say it: BYU and the Mormon church is nothing but a mind-control cult.
Okay I’m convinced. Let’s put it to aitcon.
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I wanted to add my thoughts.
I grew up in the church and faithfully served a full-time mission after a year at BYU. I struggled with my beliefs while on my mission, but “shelved” my concerns at the recommendation of my priesthood leaders. I returned to BYU after my mission, remaining faithful in the church, but still had doubts that I wanted to get rid of. I wanted to believe and thought the doubts would go away with serious study and prayer, and doing all the things that we’re taught to do as members. But my doubts only grew and it didn’t take more than a few semesters to realize I just couldn’t believe it anymore. I applied to transfer TWICE but each time, after realizing how far it would put me behind in school (at least a year and a half), I couldn’t transfer. I didn’t have the money to prolong school another 3 or 4 semesters. On the flip side, BYU doesn’t let us convert to other faiths, without getting kicked out. Your life is taken hostage because you are not given the same type of religious considerations that members of other faiths are given at BYU. It makes no sense. I was not proselyting. I was not spreading my beliefs. I hadn’t changed lifestyles. I was still the same good person I’d always been. I still followed BYU standards, but my inner beliefs would have me kicked out of BYU? It was gut wrenching, but I remained at BYU, kept my mouth shut, attended church, served in callings, and graduated in 4 years, all while being completely miserable because I couldn’t search and investigate other faiths more in line with my own, or find others with like minded goals and beliefs. It made no sense, and it’s wrong.
Many members of the church have a severe persecution complex when it comes to media relations, but one need not look any further than some of the comments here and it’s not hard to find them on the other side of the equation–spewing ignorance and showing a complete indifference to compassionate thought.
I would’ve loved to have a group like this, had I known about it.
You could transfer. You did not because it would have costs you did not want to pay. So you sold out your beliefs because the cost was just too high.
I don’t pay income taxes because I believe it is evil. I don’t have a driver’s license and I drive anyway because I believe I have a RIGHT to drive. I don’t have a Social Security Number because I believe it is the Mark of the Beast. I know what it costs to stand by your beliefs.
People like you that “CANNOT transfer” because it would cost to much or be too hard, make me sick. Thank God the Founding Fathers did not sell out their principles for a mess of pottage like so many of you atheists. Maybe God does not exist but it is obvious from reading these comments that being an atheist must melt your backbone where a belief in God allows for things like the United States of America to be created
Christopher Hansen,
Dude, chill.
Go back to memorizing the Book of Mormon and pledging your life to Bo Gritz. Responsible, mature people are having a discussion here…
This man is no true believing mormon. We believe in honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law unless it’s as inconvenient as polygamy, fraudulent treasure, hunting, political funding rules, and illegal immigration.
you mad aren’t you bro
Kudos to you! I hadn’t tuohght of that!
This artcile achieved exactly what I wanted it to achieve.
go and play in the sandbox!
God demands belief, and repudiates that which repudiates him, no? In light of this, to deny him is an unquestionable evil. To deny him as you have known him would be to literally deny everything good and right. This is a true and undeniable principle for a Christian: You do not deny your beliefs for ANY REASON. Not even if the devil himself came up from hell and offered you the world on the platter. ESPECIALLY not then.
We all like to believe that other people value the same things we do, somewhere deep down in their hard hearts and twisted minds. (…. Unless only I believe that other people believe that somewhere deep down in their hard hearts and twisted minds ….) However, I think you make a mistake in assuming that what is surely an undeniable principle for you is the same for an atheist.
An atheist does not have a symmetric devotion to the non-existence of god, nor even necessarily to the principles of naturalistic science and freedom of thought. There is no automatic obligation to know and speak the “Truth” (though some of them insist on doing it anyways) and there is no Being above them to break loyalty with.
So when comparing the cost of having a life ruined against their loyalty to… What is there to be loyal to, really? Atheists may think that there ARE things worth being true to, but belief is seldom one of them. For her to be “selling out” her principles, it has to be one of her principles in the first place.
Again, that’s the inordinately hard thing to grasp–the fact that their belief is little more to them than a loose fact in their heads, much like the color of the sky or what they had for lunch last Tuesday. Something they acknowledge as true, but don’t generally feel the need to defend to their last dying breath.
And when you take that away, it becomes more like comparing the cost of having a life ruined to the discomfort of not being able to openly think or talk about the instructors’ unusually large canines, sensitivity to sunlight, and tendency to wear 17th century clothing.*
Just as you believe you have a RIGHT to drive without a license, despite it being very much illegal to do so, SHE believes that she has the right to her own thoughts, despite it being against school code. She’s not about to tell the school that she’s technically breaking the rules anymore than you are going to call up the police and inform them of your lawbreaking and where they can pick you up…**
* A rather disturbing and stressful prospect, the more that I think about it. If to top it off one of my teacher’s name was Vlad, I think I’d really need that support group! O_o
** ….. are you?
Christopher Hansen -
Most of the founding fathers were atheists, agnostics, and deists. The USA was not founded “under god”, as you probably believe. In fact, the word “god” never appears anywhere in the US Constitution.
Next time you want to make a point, please get your facts straight. You are hopelessly ignorant of the topic here.
Your post doesn’t sound genuine to me. You are either totally messed up, or have written a fake post trying to make religious people seem totally messed up (which they are). Either way, I had a good laugh. Thanks for brightening my day, bro. Now go hunt some child molesters.
I know two professors, one who is still at BYU, who know the Mormon Church is fraudulent, but play along in order to keep their job.
What a sad commentary. Integrity is fine, but when it comes to the job, well that’s another story, right?
Having said that, I can see students faking it for a semester or two until they graduate. Other doubting students with a longer road to graduation should transfer to another university.
I know of more than one student that had a strong LDS testimony when they started attending BYU but stopped believing while attending. If this happened when they had one or two semesters left, they would not be able to transfer enough credits, transferring would add a year or two to their education.
BYU has no tolerance or respect for such people. Stop believing and going to Church your out, even if you only have one semester left. This is a highly unaccommodating thing for an institution of higher learning to do.
I am glad to see that students that have learned to think for themselves, even while attending such a closed minded institution, have found support.
“Students wishing to disaffiliate from the church forfeit their place at the university.”
In the face of bad policy like this, students should make whatever choices make the most sense for them (whether that’s staying at BYU or transferring out) and they should not fret about whether or not they’re acting with integrity. If you decide to complete your studies at BYU, it’s not “hiding” or “lying” to maneuver around a rule that unfairly targets you.
I guess finding useful, relabile information on the internet isn’t hopeless after all.
For the love of God, keep writing these aritcles.
“The “Free Thinkers” want the privilege of being respected for their opinion, but they have no respect for BYU’s opinion or freedom.”
What does that even mean? If these “free thinkers” say they don’t believe, they will lose many credits and be kicked out of school. They won’t have any opportunity to continue school, even if they have just a semester left. “Respect” is not the issue here. No, the issue is much more practical – BYU holds much more power than it should, when BYU is required to “respect” religious belief to even be an accredited institution. BYU holds more power than these students ever will.
“It is ridiculous to think that a Private School must tolerate The Groups proselytizing of Atheism and Anti God rhetoric.”
They don’t proselyte.
“The Group BYU students need to transfer schools and show they are not liars.”
They didn’t start out liars. They legitimately believed or wanted to believe when they started. It’s unfair that many of their credits won’t transfer. Many of these students will transfer. Most are too close to graduation to say anything – because even if they have just a semester left and they leave the church, they may lose years of time.
To think, I was conufesd a minute ago.
I’m not quite sure how to say this; you made it extremley easy for me!
The “Free Thinkers” want the privilege of being respected for their opinion, but they have no respect for BYU’s opinion or freedom. It is ridiculous to think that a Private School must tolerate The Groups proselytizing of Atheism and Anti God rhetoric.
I am a Proud U of U Grad.
The Group BYU students need to transfer schools and show they are not liars.
Thanks Pam and Mike for your comments but if you don’t mind I would like to add my thoughts regarding what you expressed. The BYU students who are members of the group do respect BYU and the LDS church in general. I cannot think of a single member who knowingly applied to BYU without faith in the LDS doctrines but lost their faith while at BYU. They are hardworking, moral men and women who simply wish to finish their education. Many who are antagonistic believe that these students stay quiet so they may continue receive reduced tuition, but this is not the case. They are more than willing to change their status and pay the necessary tuition to remain but are not permitted to do so. Interesting, though, is that a student of differing or no faith may “convert” to LDS to receive this tuition break, and many do, but few have a problem with this type of membership number enhancing fraud as it helps “the church.” If money isn’t the issue and the students continue to follow the other portions of the honor code, what then is the reason for removing or not permitting ex-members to attend the school?
It remains unfathomable to me why BYU and the church would have that policy and attach honor to it. Many members have been on missions, held callings, and paid tithing their whole lives. These students have paid for their tuition over and over again, in both time and money spent. Essentially “the church” gets to exploit these students from birth and then throws them under the bus once they discover that they believe otherwise. Where is the justice, the mercy, and the christian love towards them? If the “honor code” (or portion thereof) is dishonorable in essence, breaking it becomes something of honor and to honor.
Also, we don’t hold anything on or immediately near campus. We cannot as we could get kicked off or arrested because it is private property. The group does not send 2 members out for 2 years to teach our “Atheism and Anti-god rhetoric” door to door. We don’t go looking for minorities or marginalized groups with the intent to convert. We DO send 6 to 8 people to protest hate and violence on a street corner. We DO provide service, aid, and support to minorities and marginalized groups. And we DO help those who are looking for belonging and someone to talk to. This group has done some truly amazing things that have helped many. I’m afraid your ignorance is quite apparent
Thoughts form another imperfect, curious being. I think it would be beneficial for the Atheists to change schools. When they graduate, who is going to take any of them seriously as Atheist BYU graduates? It would be like graduating coconscious objectors from WestPoint, or a vegetarian attending a school for Butchers and Meat Cutters. We all have our own selfish interest and work hard to try to convince everyone else that we are good people. Anyone that might not agree that we are good people must be mistaken and we try even harder to find reasons why the people that disagree with us are wrong. I tried once to get into BYU but they wouldn’t take me. Was I forced to attend and graduate from the UofU? (I think not) This Universe is a very large place and the part we know about is likely over 50 billion years old. Even though I think I know about many various things there is always more I can learn. I think this definition of education is interesting; “learning more and more about less and less until we finally know all there is to know about nothing”. I do have a belief in a higher power, I have felt the love from this higher power for all of his creations; including those that disagree with me, would fight against me, would like to see me dead or even kill me or those like me.
Hal,
Thank you for your comment. I would agree that in general transferring to another school would be best for the BYU non-theists. However, sometimes this isn’t a possibility given certain circumstances. As to not being taken seriously because someone graduated from BYU as a non-theist I think you may be wrong. You are entitled to your opinion and I am not trying to convince you, just show you a different perspective. The programs at BYU are still accredited and even sponsored by national organizations. All that should be looked at is the persons degree and any questions of religion or its absence wouldn’t be necessary. I would think that there are many people who graduate from Notre Dame who aren’t Catholic just as there are many with degrees from BYU who are not LDS.
Also, while I cannot agree with your belief in personal god I am glad such a belief has led you to a better place in your life. If religion helps people maintain their happiness without injury to others, then I would never want to take that from them. I hope we all can have a civil, productive conversation to promote mutual understanding, love, and/or at least simple tolerance. I feel Utah could use more diversity of both people and ideas because how can people find better (if it is better) if there is no option for anything else. Thanks again for your comment and civility.
Joseph Smith was a liar.
Brigham Young was a liar.
…
Gordon B. Hinckley was a liar.
etc, etc, etc.
These students have become disaffected with Mormonism precisely because of their honesty, whereas the Church sustains itself through institutionalized dishonesty.
I dont understand why people think religious institutions need to lower their standards for school they run. I live in Wisconsin, and the Lutheran college here has standards on par with BYU’s, including kicking people out based on their behavior. People here dont complain or form secret societies about it, they just transfer if they have a problem with it, or dont apply there in the first place. BYU student members of “the Group” have to be feeling some anxiety living double lives–for their sake and the sake of those that would give an arm and/or a leg to attend BYU, they should transfer (like to the U of U, which is basically one big “the Group”.
The students are not having to stay in secret because they are breaking behavior rules. You can get kicked out just for saying you don’t believe in the church. Most of the students in the group are totally compliant when it comes to behavior… it’s punishing thought crime that’s ridiculous.
How do you know that people aren’t forming secret societies at the Lutheran college in your town? If you knew about them they wouldn’t be secret would they? The fact that you don’t know about their secret clubs is evidence that they have done a good job at keeping their clubs a secret. That’s the whole purpose about a SECRET–it’s something that not everybody knows about.
I don’t get why people think religious institutions need to lower their standards when they are running a school. I live in Wisconsin, and the Lutheran College has standards on par with BYU in terms of strictness. People here don’t complain about it, or form secret societies to get away from it, they just transfer if they have a problem with it, or don’t even apply there in the first place. The anxiety from living a double life has to be tough on BYU students in “the Group”–for their sake and the sake of the hundreds of students who would give an arm and a leg to get into BYU, they should transfer t(maybe to the U of U, which is basically one big “The Group” only not secret).
I was a member of this group last year and actually met my fiance in it.
glad to hear it is still going strong 
Michael, actually in Utah County, where BYU resides, they legally *can* kick people out because of their sexuality. Out of their apartment and out of their job.
This group is one of the best forces in my life, I hope that those risks aren’t magnified by this article.
It is unfortunate that BYU is allowed to call themselves a university. A university is an institution of learning. BYU however is an institution of indoctrination, because if you aren’t being indoctrinated they have no interest in your learning and will actively harm you and your education for your personal beliefs as evidenced through their shameful policies. As a private institution they have every right to be an institution of indoctrination, but we as a society should be under no obligation to treat them as if their purpose was education and deserving of the title “University.” When they start putting students first rather than their own PR, then maybe they will have the moral authority to lay claim to “honor.” As it stands they are with any.
I agree with the general thrust of your comment. But, I would go further. Religion, of any stripe, is designed to be indoctrination and propaganda. It is designed to hide the inconvenient truths and complexities (even contradictions) of its doctrine and its history so as to engender “faith” and belief (and the right “testimony”). There is considerable evidence that God is OK with this approach. If most of the D&C is to be believed–as an example of God’s undistorted “word,” since the Old and New Testaments are so fraught with error and manipulation by men–the “absolute truth” (as stated by Elder Holland in his recent CES address) is not what He wants us to be taught. I do not believe, however, that it is His intent to completely eliminate independent thought and study. In fact, I think that His plan is to indoctrinate and shepherd us as sheep, expecting (even hoping) that some of us will see through the curtain (a la Wizard of Oz) and discover real truths.
Given that long-standing and inimitable precedent, the Church is simply extending the “faith-building” process through its policies–including those at what passes for a university, and institution of higher learning.
I was an undergrad at BYU in the late 60′s and early 70′s. While the curriculum and the teaching was more open then, the vast majority of students were sheep-like regarding their lack of thinking about significant issues: birth control, the ERA, civil rights, to name a few. They almost uniformly would simply quote some GAs talk in General Conference, or refer to some historical comments by former prophets, when expressing their thoughts. And, if none were readily available (quotes) they mostly were willing to “wait until Salt Lake says something about it.”
If I were still there, I would certainly seek out The Group.
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“There is danger in venturing out into the world and thinking, feeling, and behaving differently…”
Thank you for pointing out one of the inherent flaws of the church and BYU society as your argument. People aren’t all wired the same. That which brings fulfillment and happiness to one is often very different from another, and that’s perfectly okay. There is rhyme and reason to why there are hundreds of different religions, belief systems, life practices, etc. One size does not fit all, and it never will. And to prescribe that the solution is to NOT venture out and think, feel and behave differently? If we all had this mentality there would be little diversity, fewer medical/scientific/etc advances, and less richness of culture in the world.
You’re welcome to stay in your cave of ‘perfect knowledge’ and faith in your savior- I fully support you in your personal beliefs and practices. I would personally rather go out into the world with open eyes and an open mind, so that I may learn things about the incredible world around me without a skewed view of how it all works, with a mind like that of a child’s, ready to absorb all that I can from that which I can see, touch and tangibly feel. It’s incredible how beautiful everything is through a different pair of glasses.
It’s very telling that the Honor Code Office declined to comment. While BYU, as a private university, can legally have policies discriminating against former believers, it still violates ethical principles. BYU is also violating the tenets of their own religion, as expressed in the 13th Article of Faith: “We claim the privilege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same priviledge, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” The BYU Honor Code Office should – and apparently does – feel ashamed of their behavior.
My mistake, I meant the eleventh article of the thirteen Articles of Faith.
For many, it is impossible to transfer. For example, though the girl mentioned fits many to a T, I believe the one interviewed is a master’s student. If she were to attempt a transfer, she would lose all of her master’s credit. The unfortunate part is BYU is very covert about their belief policy. When I started at BYU, I didn’t plan for losing my faith and the possible outcomes. After trying very hard for many years to regain some semblance of belief, I finally had to let myself accept that the church was a lie. Therefore, through no fault of my own, I found myself in violation of the honor code. I decided that since it is an incredibly unjust rule – a rule that is impossible to choose to follow – I would not feel guilty about violating it.
However, I will strongly encourage anyone thinking of attending BYU to apply to other schools.
“it is impossible to transfer.”
Obviously it is not impossible. There is a cost and you have to decide if your integrity is worth the cost. And it is a cost the student signed up for when they joined the university. The Honor Code office states their policies when a student is accepted, and the student SIGNS THE DOCUMENT. If the student no longer believes, THAT WAS THE RISK HE OR SHE SIGNED UP FOR. Transferring is not only possible, it is the way to be ethical rather than lying to save yourself time and money.
Ever notice how whenever someone sacrifices their integrity, they will never admit that they’ve done just that? It is always someone else’s fault.
How much time and money is your integrity worth? According to several people in this forum, trading integrity for a few semesters’ worth is about right. Somehow BYU having a “bad policy” is a good enough reason for outright lying. But your integrity should remain true even if you think BYU’s integrity has hit the dungpile. Why is someone else’s mistakes a good enough reason for you to do something wrong?
But perhaps this is the appealing factor for “The Group.” Without a support group it would probably be a lot more difficult to sacrifice your morals for less valuable returns, and still convince yourself that you are “logically” right.
BYU Non-group member,
How did you get past the spam protection question of “Sum of 1+9″?
You speak as a true, blue mormon. You are absolutely ignorant to the thoughts and feelings of others. How this religion can claim to be Christian is beyond me. I’m sure you extoll the virtues of the founding fathers (who were dead dunked into mormonism) for their “integrity” of standing up to the system. Now, you, as part of the “system”, seek to minimize and degrade your fellow students for doing what they feel is right, which does absolutely nothing to endanger your beliefs or your blessed school. You, my friend are small minded, shut off and indoctrinated…just like a good mormon should be…
This group may allow you to be yourself, but at what cost does being yourself come? There is danger in venturing out into the world and thinking, feeling, and behaving differently than our exemplar, Jesus Christ himself.
> There is danger in venturing out into the world
What does this statement even mean? Guess what pal, you’re already living in the world. Surrounding yourself with like-minded people who only agree with you is what Jesus Christ would want? Dude, you live in bizarroland.
Jesus Christ, who drank alcohol? Jesus Christ, the Jew? Jesus Christ, who ventured out into the world, thinking, feeling, and behaving differently than those in the society in which he was raised?
Jesus Christ, with his body piercings? Jesus Christ, who spent time with prostitutes? Jesus Christ, who broke the Sabbath? Jesus Christ, really? Are we talking about the same Jesus? Read the Gospels before you presume to lecture people about the dangers of neglecting to dress, act, and be like Christ. I think you have him confused with the dudes who killed him (a.k.a. white-washed sepulchers known as Scribes and Pharisees: they were careful to pay their tithing, but couldn’t care less about things like mercy and love).
Gosh, I wish I would have had that inforaimton earlier!
Thanks for the great info dog I owe you biiggty.
Weeeee, what a quick and easy souliton.
This makes everything so colmeptley painless.
“At what cost does being yourself come?”
Is that a serious question? The only “cost” that could potentially be associated with being true to yourself is the cost of losing friends and being disowned by a family who doesn’t love you for who you ARE. There is only one kind of love in this world:
A much higher price is paid by repressing who you are and pretending to be someone you’re not in order to please others or to meet expectations. True happiness comes from the inside out, not from the outside in. We must first be true to ourselves, not to other people’s expectations of what we should be.
Can anyone say time to transfer. How about this great school I’ve heard of in Salt Lake, you know the one with the drum and feathers, The University of Utah anyone? But in all seriousness I’m from Utah County and can attest to the kind of culture that these students are living in. It’s sad that a college can kick someone out because of their non belief, even a private institution. I mean we don’t let apartment owners refuse rent to someone because of their gender, sexuality or race do we?
“I mean we don’t let apartment owners refuse rent to someone because of their gender, sexuality or race do we?”
No – well, unless those apartment owners run apartments that are BYU approved housing, in which case they will definitely kick you out, even if you’re not a BYU student.